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Author:  Timbit [ Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hypnosis

Conventional hypnosis, and extreme hypnosis are two different things. No doubt that on the extreme end, exploiting the potential has, and is, being done.

To 'program' a second personality, independant of the first does make sense. When you consider those with split personalities as an example of 'potential', it is to most, the stuff of science fiction to create such a state, that is otherwise not present in an individual.

I think there very well may be some similarities such as levels of intelligence, physical health, age of the individual, goals of the alternative personaltiy. There has to be a purpose, and it would be a systematic breakdown, and building up, of the desired characteristics, to achieve that 'new' person, to carry out an agenda.

Of course it is possible, why would people not be exploited, when we know that, as a commodity, it is viable, useful, and advantageous.


Author:  david barclay [ Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hypnosis

With all due respect and consideration.......not only is such a thing possible its a basic standard in determining the efficiency of the process.

I don't enjoy this kind of thing one bit, because I would be very happy to live without any of it being what we refer to as real.

But because it is real and innocent people are victimized in the process it causes me a great deal of concern that too many people might assume it to be a load of science fiction.

What I want to know is; what the hell is standard hypnosis...? If you read Estabrook you will find that he is talking about standard hypnosis, for the most part. The ability and knowledge of the hypnotist is the determining factor.

Most mind control subjects or victims spend much of their lives in a state of hypnosis, as they slip in and out of a hypnotic state with the greatest of ease and for the most part people around them don't notice and or can't tell when they are in or out.

It takes some degree of experience to know when such a person is in a hypnotic state or not.

I would like to clarify something here; when we talk about mind control do we really know what it is we are talking about, because the process of conditioning associated with mind control can usually incorporate more than 2 or 3 hundred different triggers which are instilled through various forms of brain washing under hypnosis.

Triggers are things the subject has been conditioned to respond to, which can be viewed as fencing. Sort of like putting an electric fence up to keep the subject from escaping.

Triggers can be anything and seem like everything.....but each trigger is associated with fear.

This in itself has a subduing effect and limits the subjects self will or self empowerment, it keeps them trapped in a subdued state.

In the hands of the right person hypnosis becomes a deadly weapon or a tool for the purpose of crime. So this generally accepted idea that hypnosis is perfectly safe and seemingly harmless is not quite true and somewhat misleading.

A skilled technician of hypnosis can hypnotise just about anyone and using the right approach can have people doing things they would not otherwise do faster than you can say, say what?

There is a general belief that the person being hypnotized knows what is going on and in a very real sense they do, but remember that the subconscious works by different rules than the conscious mind...there is no intellectual censoring at the subconscious level.

Like I said hypnosis deals with memory and for this reason hypnosis can get very complicated once you get into the functional dynamics of memory.

You see, memory is not linearly sequenced, which means there is no actual separation between one memory bit and another memory bit, so in terms of memory, regardless of the linear timing involved, such as 2 years, 10 years or even 50 years, each bit of memory is as valid as any other.

Memory cannot under any circumstances be erased........blocked yes, but never erased. So every aspect of our existence is retained as memory, but whether we can remember it all is another matter entirely. But the important point is that memory exists as a continuance of our life experience, its part of us.

We hear about false memory, but when you get into this you will find that false memory as a theory was invented by the CIA and incorporated into the world of psychiatry for a specific purpose and that purpose was to deflect anything remembered that was never intended to be remembered. This goes back to MK ultra, with its thousands of sub-programs and projects involving many thousands of research subjects in many different countries.

So if someone should happen to remember something that was never intended to be known outside of the programs and projects they can play the false memory card. At least that was the original idea.

Unfortunately it is played far too often and is commonly employed to assist defence lawyers in attempting to convince jurors to find their clients innocent of their alleged crimes.

Organizations such as the CIA do not function on the basis of ethics or moral considerations, they function to win and winning is all that matters, the method is inconsequential.

Author:  Timbit [ Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hypnosis

A skilled technician of hypnosis can hypnotise just about anyone and using the right approach can have people doing things they would not otherwise do faster than you can say, say what?

That is just not true. At least in the mainstream hypnosis that is used for recovering memory of abduction, or for entertainment purposes, or past life regression.

That is quite a different ballgame where the systematic destruction of the human psyche, under controlled circumstances, in order to break a person down and re-program them so to speak, to behave, think, and process information in a new way, as in a new person, or personality.

We are talking apples and oranges here. One is controlled by an individual, one is not under a person's control, one is subjective, one is directive.

Hypnotising children for instance under conditions you describe, would require less effort than it would for an adult off the street. Even at that, there has to be compliance with the individual, (which is a process in itself) they have to be broken down, and rebuilt like a machine. As you know, there are many ways to break a spirit, which is essentially what it is.

Contrary to popular opinion, only the brightest of people can be good subjects for hypnotism. They have to believe and allow themselves to behave in ways they otherwise wouldn't be, knowing what those suggestions are, and be in control at all times to simply stop it.

The darker application of this process I do believe is as you stated it. It is the extreme end of a process which has been taken advantages of, for purposes not generally accepted as real, but that are very real. Further, I believe that it has been a refined process, and would be surprised if it isn't part of a secret arsenal of applied psychiatry that has developed over the years.


Author:  david barclay [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hypnosis

Good and valid points Tim......but for those who want to get a better handle on this I urge you to read Estabrook's book on Hypnosis, as this guy was unusually skilled at his craft.

Of course hypnosis in the hands of a skilled therapist is not misused or abused, or at least its not supposed to be, but this continual insistence that people cannot be hypnotized, unknowingly and for all intents and purposes never know they were hypnotized, is simply not true.

For example; lets take a real case.....a man, a very smart man with a university degree, is a policeman and a good policeman to boot. But up the chain of command his superiors want to get one of their people into a certain university in the old USSR in order to to bring them up to speed on what is going on there.

So, this man is hypnotized, unknowingly, and convinced that his real ambition is to return to teaching and because of this session with a hypnotist he resigns from the force and takes a position as a university professor in Canada and proceeds to teach.

As it happens he is a very good teacher and soon finds himself being offered an exchange position in the USSR, which has been suggested he should accept. And off he goes to teach overseas completely unaware of his real purpose in traveling to the USSR.

His position in the USSR is to his liking and he is well liked by his students, but he has no idea that his real purpose in being there is to spy. He hasn't a clue about the spy business.

Unfortunately the KGB keep a close eye on exchange teachers and are well aware of what hypnosis is capable of hiding, so they bring him in for questioning because they are suspicious.

They spend a great deal of time trying to get passed the key control that keeps his subconscious instructions hidden, but they are having absolutely no success and becoming somewhat frustrated in the process.

Finally after days of interrogation they decide its hopeless and a total waste of time. But they are not going to allow him to return to Canada in the same condition he arrived.

They cannot get to the subconscious information, but what they can do is scramble him and prevent him from being of any more value to his handlers or a threat to the security of the USSR. Basically they screw his mind up to the point where he is now seeing the world through very different eyes.

He returns to Canada a broken man, he is now abusive to his family and friends and has taken to heavy drinking and quite incapable of holding a job.

The thing that finally did him in was the realization of what had been done to him, he could not understand why. He felt betrayed, which is natural of course, and could not fathom why his fellow officers would do this to him, as he felt he had never done anything to hurt of offend any of them. He had done his job and he had always done it to the best of his ability.

He died a couple of years later...mostly from a broken spirit and a broken heart, but in reality he drank himself to death, which goes a long way in hiding the truth of the situation.

His wife got no pension, no funeral expenses, nothing. He was denied, his wife who was a registered nurse was denied and his children were denied.

One of his fellow officers did say it was sad, he was one of our casualties. Tough luck eh.

This was during the last years of the cold war, but it makes a point...hypnosis is not the benign and innocent tool it is made out to be, in the wrong hands it is dangerous.

Of course no ethical practitioner of hypnosis is going to experiment to find out for themselves if this can actually be done, but there are thousands of people who have been victimized by such unethical practices.

There is as much misinformation in academic circles as there is anywhere else, its simply part and parcel of the way our world functions.

Remember, we are assured by authority figures who themselves are assured by someone else and so on; that this or that is this way or that way or this is true and that is false etc. And for the most part we believe them, because we don't have a whole lot of other options.

Also, read an amazing well researched book; War Against the Weak.....by Black. This is the history of what today is called genetics and if this book does not convince you nothing else will. It's a long read, but well worth the time spent. I sat down and read it cover to cover in 2 days.

The American Psychiatric Society has a long history of clandestine connections and to date nothing has changed to improve the situation to any marked degree.

Crimes are committed on a daily basis, in the name of national security, and for the most part most of us remain at best doubtful of the situation and somewhat unsure what to believe or not believe. And believe me it's a hell of shock when you do find out for sure.

Author:  Timbit [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hypnosis

David, I would love to read the book you've referenced, but I've got a stack here that I'm dying to get to before my wish list for Christmas makes another stack! I will add that to the list.

It will take a lot of convincing that a normal, everyday person of above average intelligence with a university education can be hynotized without being aware of it. From what I've learned over the years in this topic and related studies, I've never seen anything that has even suggested that can be done without compliance of some sort. Whether that be through means we've already talked about, or through drug inducement of some kind, or some physical interraction.

Then again, I could be all wrong, right? There is a nagging memory in my head of a post here some months ago, maybe even a year or more. It was to do with a robber who appeared to hypnotise cashiers and clerks. They seemed to comply with simple, quick instructions, and he walked off with cash from the open drawers. I believe there was even a video of this taking place. He was not threatening in any way, and these robberies took place during daytime hours.

It is hard to believe that took place as it was presented. I'd love to learn more of those incidents.


Author:  david barclay [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hypnosis

Yes Tim that is exactly what happened and yes I did see the video, it was very subtle and the cashier had no idea what or why she was giving this guy all her cash.

In fact the guy was long gone before anyone realized what had happened, but there it was on the security video.

There is also a case in France where a guy hypnotized another to rob a bank and bring him the money and the hypnotist was the one who went to jail for the crime and the poor guy who got suggested into robbing the bank was found innocent.

Hey, we live in a mad, mad, mad world, which can feel a bit overwhelming some days.

It is my understanding that an above average hypnotist can have someone under in 3 seconds without blinking an eye.

This is where the memory aspect jumps right out at you...memory is instantaneous, which means light is slow in comparison. Everything we know is memory and all reactions happen after the fact.

If memory was not encapsulated in the continuance of field hypnosis would not be possible, there would be no such thing without the continuance of field.

I admit its head spinning stuff alright, but once you understand the dynamics of the field it all makes a whole lot of sense. Which is one of the reasons why there is secret science.

The book Unity is an inside look at what secret science looks like, but remember that Kozyrev the world famous astrophysicist put the idea of time being the force of universe forward many years ago, but I did not discover his work until after I had done my own. So if you look at what this highly respected man had to say you can see that there really is something very significant about the idea. Unfortunately he is not alive today otherwise I would be trying to or would have already met the guy.

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