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 Post subject: experiments
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:26 am 
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I watched a documentary last night about the 2 men, one Russian and one American, who where the pioneers in organ transplants. It started in the 60`s in Russia with a surgeon transplanting organs successfully from dogs, and even having a dogs heart kept artificially "alive" after being detatched from the body for hours. They then turned their attention to the brain, successfully attaching the front half of a puppy to the neck of a full grown dog. They showed video of it walking round, and both of the heads lapping milk.
After many experiments, they eventually decided to prove that they could transplant a brain and keep it fully functional so they got 2 monkeys, detatched the heads of both and re-attached one head to the body of the other. They waited for it to come round from the anaesthetic and videoed it, it was a success, the monkey watched with his eyes, drank from a straw, and was fully conscious.

That video, was one of, if not the most sad clips I have ever seen.

To watch that poor monkey looking around, not being able to move, I really felt while watching that, that we humans are a cruel lot, but as they said on the documentary, how would we know without doing the experiments. Transplants have saved many lives since those days, so who am I to argue...?

What do you think ?


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 Post subject: Re: experiments
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:59 pm 
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It really is a double-edged sword isn't it. We can't experiment on attaching two human heads to one human body afterall.

Did they say what the purpose was- did they intend to continue experiments to show that an actual brain could eventually be transplanted in a human?

I don't know that I could sit through a documentary like that, unless all the gruesome experiments on animals produced some positive results such as a cure for alzheimers for instance.

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: experiments
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:30 pm 
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The fact that they have the nerve to do this to helpless animals shows that we are still a barbaric world. We are supposed to live in PEACE with all the other life forms, not use them to enhance our longevity and for other totally selfish reasons!

This makes me physically ill...

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 Post subject: Re: experiments
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:46 pm 
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It is barbaric. And it isn't isolated. One course I took long ago, required all of us be assigned a rat. Different types of non-physical experimentation was done, and when it was over, the rats were destroyed. Some opted to take theirs home as pets, but most of us didn't.

And that was only one class of 22 with 22 rats. How many years have passed since then, with the same experiments, with the essentially the same results, done over and over again. Probably thousands. It would not be any different than using cats, monkey's, dogs etc. Why would that need to be reproduced as a 'learning tool' at all. Why not study the results that had already been achieved say, over 10 years, or 20 years.

All we learned was yes, rats can be trained to do this and that. Yes, that behaviour ties in with Pavlov's written text. But, why several thousand rats to reach the same conclusion.

Why do these experiments never stop. Will there never be enough information to draw a conclusion and move on without the animal sacrifice?

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: experiments
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:08 pm 
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I was never permitted to take the ACADEMIC COURSES for college prep when I was in high school, because I was against dissection in biology class. Now I have heard that some classes use fake creatures that are built to be exactly like the real animals.

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 Post subject: Re: experiments
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:17 pm 
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The conclusion was that hopefully, one day, we will be able to transplant the head of a paralysedor deformed person who is fully compus mentos on to a body of a person who has died without any physical harm other than head injuries. They say they have found something that will help regenerate the nerves in the spinal cord to help attach the 2 severed parts together.

All very Dr frankenstein, but it seems we are getting closer to doing all of the above.

I assume the experiments are still ongoing, but not as many as there were, I just feel that being a doctor, nurse, surgeon, or whatever they have to switch off their emotions so they dont get emotionally attached, or it could severely effect them.

Is it a hard thing to do, switching emotions off for work and then on when you get home, or is it quite easy, I thought it would take a heavy toll over a long period, but I have no idea.


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 Post subject: Re: experiments
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:14 pm 
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You'd have to be (at the very least) arrogant... Maybe even have to have two distinct personalities.

I used to have to "switch off" feelings for people as persons, and look at them as assets or liabilities, in the job I performed for the greatest amount of years in my life. I was an insurance claims adjuster. Not only was I bound by the constrains of the interpretations of the auto insurance policies, I had to report insureds to underwriting when accidents seemed to follow them around, even though they had done nothing I could find to CAUSE the accidents to happen.

[CASE IN POINT: If someone was rear-ended three times in 3 years, they became a liability, and therefore my job forced me to send a notification to Underwriting to look at that particular policyholder, and determine if their policy should be renewed, and if so, at how much of an increased premium to cover the Reserves for that driver and his/her family.]

Many times the CLAIMANT (the party who was struck by my company's insured policyholder) was in no way at fault for the accident, and was severely injured. It was my job to settle the many parts of the claim against my company for a fair but as little a dollar figure as I could. Often, when our insured was blatantly negligent, my heart would want to give away the company money vault ... especially when there was permanent injury or disfigurement. But I (of course!) couldn't do that; rather, I had to put my personal empathies aside, and settle each section of the claim for what was deemed fair, but as low as I could get the claimant to accept.

I never could leave my feelings at the office; many times the decisions I agreed to make according to the constrains of the policy were, in my opinion, extremely UNFAIR in the moral sense of the word. But I had to make a living, and at least I felt empathy for the damaged/injured parties, whether they were ours or the claimant, which was a lot more than some of those cold-hearted adjusters I worked with every day, could do!

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 Post subject: Re: experiments
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Over the years I have met many cold hearted doctors and nurses and have come to accept that there is a need for that kind of person but I myself was a compassionate nurse and would standup to the doctors or other nurses on behalf of the patients when necessary. Sometimes I was cheered for it and other times I was hauled over the coals.

In one teaching hospital we had a 60 year old lady who had many years before lost the lower part of her leg below her knee. She had a prosthesis (artificial leg) and could walk well and was otherwise fit and healthy except she had developed an ulcer on her stump from rubbing. It was very painfull and she foolishly said to her doctors (students) that it hurts that bad sometimes she wishes she could get it just cut off like the rest of it was.

Their senior teaching doctor asked them for a patient update and they told him. He said ok so has any of you seen an amputation and only one of the three had so he said right then lets cut it off so you can see what happens when we do that.

What happens is that they have to now cut it off above the knee and create a new stump and new prothesis, but she would never be able to walk properly again because she would no longer be able to bend her knee and that makes walking more difficult and can cause balance problems as well as back problems and she would be prone to falls which at her age could cause a broken hip and could take months and months for the leg to heal.

The alternative to this was to bathe her wound and dress it daily and put her on a course of antibiotics for two weeks and to have her prosthesis refitted to ensure it fitted properly and didn't rub. When shoes are too big or too small and cause blisters you get new ones you don't cut your foot off.

I jumped up and down and had a go at the specialist and told him what I thought. I got hauled over the coals and the lady got told it was medically deemed necessary to have it cut off and I wasn't allowed to tell her the truth.

I came accross so many incidents like this over the years and it doesn't harden you toward the patients but it does harden you toward the doctors and you lose faith in them. I know the best way for those students to learn was to actually do it but I just wish it was done to patients who genuinely required it.

As for transplants from a personal view point. I would rather die. I think when your time is up it's up no matter what age and I'm not afraid of dying. We all do it and who knows perhaps something better is waiting on the other side and they may be ready for you and you go and get a new (well used and seconhand) heart or liver or kidneys and postpone it for what, five years max. Not worth it to me. Ann :P


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 Post subject: Re: experiments
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:16 pm 
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When we're young, transplant organs are a viable option, except for the drugs one now has to take to prevent rejection of the new organ.

Dr. Roger Lier, the person who is doing alien implant surgery, is working feverishly to find a way to duplicate the alien membrane that always surrounds the implants he removes from his patients. Why? Well, the membrane obviously prevents the implant from creating infection, scar tissue, etc. And if the membrane can be replicated, it could be used around regular implanted organs, and then rejection drug therapy would NOT be necessary!

I personally hope he's successful in finding a viable way to replicate the membrane tissue.

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 Post subject: Re: experiments
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:59 am 
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His work is extremely interesting. I've read about the implants, and the puzzle of no damage to surrounding fine muscle, tissue or tiny veins. There is certainly something remarkable about that when you consider even a tiny sliver in your foot that so easily gets infected.

What an interesting thought to realize that the discovery of the material involved in protecting the implant would have on organ transplants.

Tim

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